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Re: A Cultural Misunderstanding
by
koantum
on Mon 26 Jan 2009 06:58 AM PST | Profile | Permanent Link
Angiras, I can't thank you sufficiently for undertaking this thankless task. What is on display here is the petty mind of the reader – in this case the director of the "University of Tomorrow," which claims to encourage "a thoughtful and critical examination of all ideas" (q.e.d.) – rather than "the petty mind of the writer," as this rabble-rouser claims.
Re: A Cultural Misunderstanding
Dear Angiras,
Thanks for sharing your perspective. Just a few observations, comments and questions. "What is perhaps surprising is that the writer of this letter is the director of an online educational institute, Sri Aurobindo Darshan: The University of Tomorrow. As stated on its websight, this institute does not insist on the acceptance of “any particular teaching, practice, or point of view,” and encourages “a thoughtful and critical examination of all ideas.”" In all fairness, perhaps the issue of Peter being an Ashramite is different from being a student at SACAR or the University of Tomorrow. It would be different if Mr. Reddy had objected to a student at SACAR / University of Tomorrow from writing this biography. I think Peter should have been more sensitive to the emotional boundaries of individuals in the institution of which he is a part. Frankly, if I were him, I would have run the manuscript by others in the Ashram and gotten feedback/criticism before publishing it. It just seems to be a basic courtesy to respect colleagues in the institution of which you're a part. This letter from Dr. Satchidananda Mohanty expressed the Ashram perspective very well, I thought: http://www.sriaurobindoaba.com/index.php?option=com_links&task=linkdetail&cname=19&Itemid=72 "Added to all these objections, written in the letter [below], there is also the danger of the local politicians, the central govt.- anti-Sri Aurobindonean, leftists all converging on the Ashram and dig open for ‘inquisition’ just because of this malignant book! " But why would any of these people -- particularly politicians and people in the government -- read this biography or even be interested in it? I felt that it is so mental, dry and analytical that only some highly esoteric academics interested in Sri Aurobindo would have read it. And if anti-Aurobindo parties did read the book, why would they turn against the Ashram because of it? They might continue to write anti-Aurobindo material or propaganda -- which they have been doing anyway, regardless of the Heehs biography -- but I don't see why it would land the Ashram into any kind of political trouble. (Maybe I am misunderstanding this statement.) "The book is already increasing the awareness of and respect for Sri Aurobindo in America." I happen to have a very close friend here in America who is a Christian mystic, and I told him a little bit about this controversy in the international Sri Aurobindo community. What he pointed out to me was that in the West, when one wants to venerate and elevate someone in the eyes of others, one subjects them to a critical analysis and shows that they stand up well to it. It is actually a form of veneration in the Western mind. Now certainly I can raise lots of stylistic issues with the Heehs biography and there are definitely certain paragraphs which in my opinion should just be re-written completely as they are prone to misinterpretation. Also, the biography is too dry and mental for my taste ... I prefer the passion of Satprem's "Sri Aurobindo, or the Adventure of Consciousness". But I can see what Peter Heehs may have been trying to do, and I can understand some of the cultural differences at play here. "Heehs has spent much of his life studying Indian culture and has a good reputation as a scholar among Indian academics." His book, "Indian Religions", is one of the best compendiums of knowledge on spirituality in India, at least on the mental plane. "In so strongly stating the materialistic position, Sri Aurobindo is giving the opposite of his own viewpoint in order to refute it in what follows." Yes, exactly, Sri Aurobindo does this a lot, and in fact the way in which certain academics misrepresent him and accuse him of being racist or pro-eugenics is precisely by quoting such paragraphs without quoting those paragraphs that follow after them. It is because he tries to look at everything from every angle first and then offers his own synthetic spiritual solutions to problems. I did find some parallels in Peter's style to this. For instance, when he describes "The Synthesis of Yoga" (p. 279) he starts off by giving the standard objection raised to Sri Aurobindo's yoga -- even by other Indian spiritual teachers -- which is that he provides no real methods. Then he quotes from Sri Aurobindo and explains why this is in fact a benefit of the integral yoga, and not something that goes to its detriment. My only objection to this particular paragraph (which is I guess my objection to the biography as a whole) was that it was too restrained and there was not enough passion in it. I also felt Peter missed an opportunity to quote that marvelous statement from The Synthesis of Yoga, summing up for me what is the greatness of the integral yoga: ". . . one may say that the perfection of the integral Yoga will come when each man is able to follow his own path of Yoga, pursuing the development of his own nature in its upsurging towards that which transcends the nature. For freedom is the final law and the last consummation." (p. 51 from The Synthesis of Yoga) Moving on ... "Heehs switches from “Aurobindo” to “Sri Aurobindo” in the last part of the book, starting at the point where Sri Aurobindo himself made this change. “Sri” thus indicates the spiritual transformation he had undergone and acquires a deeper meaning than if it had been used from the beginning of his life." But doesn't Georges van Vrekhem do this in his book too, i.e. in "Beyond the Human Species"? He starts off by referring to Them as Aurobindo and Mirra and then moves on to Sri Aurobindo and the Mother when he starts to speak of their role as Divine incarnations. Nobody raised any objections to that, as far as I know. "Heehs’s remarks on the marriage do not differ so much from those of some other biographers. K. R. Srinivasa Iyengar, for instance, writes: 'After three or four years, they seem to have somewhat drifted apart.... Mrinalini very likely found her admired and adored husband rather difficult to understand.'" It seems fairly obvious that Sri Aurobindo and his wife were poles apart intellectually and spiritually. The same goes for Mother and her first husband -- she was obviously vastly spiritually superior to him. It's hardly difficult to understand why they would have drifted apart. "By avoiding dogmatism, Heehs has opened himself to charges of heresy. When the Mother spoke in 1965 of “the difference in the atmosphere now, after the intrusion of something which was not there before,” she was asked whether this “something” was the supramental force. She answered: “I would rather not give it a name, because people will make a dogma out of it. That is what happened when what is called ‘the first supramental manifestation’ occurred in 1956. I tried my best to prevent it from being made into a dogma. But if I say, ‘On such a date, such a thing happened’, it will be written in big letters and if anyone says anything else he will be told, ‘You are a heretic.’ So I do not want that.” (CWM 10:208) She tried her best to prevent such statements of hers from being turned into dogmas, but the human religious tendency has proved too strong." This is a really interesting passage. I must admit I have found this insistence on the literal, fixed mental belief in Sri Aurobindo and Mother's avatarhood very strange. This is not because I don't have faith in that possibility, but simply because, quite frankly, I don't know what it means!! I can keep screaming "They were avatars! They were avatars!" at the top of my lungs for as long as I want, but in terms of having an actual inner grasp of what avatarhood means, I will get nowhere. Even if I have some mental ideas about avatarhood -- I see it as a sacrifice made by an instrument that consents to bear a descent of Divinity and simultaneously to help the ascending humanity by bearing its ignorance [yes, it sounds excruciating] -- that is a far cry from knowing inwardly what a sacrifice of that sort entails. What about the "mystery" aspect of spirituality? Why should we pretend that we already know things that are far beyond our understanding? Some time back I wrote down a list of assumptions that I was going to take on faith in this yoga. Here is one of them: "There is a soul within and a Grace above. My Gurus, Sri Aurobindo and the Mother, were in their lifetime embodiments of this Grace, although this is a mystery of an order that is beyond my comprehension at present. " Would I also be branded heretical for not coming right out and committing myself to the mental dogma of avatarhood? But from my perspective I am just being honest. I really do not have a clue what avatarhood means in practice. "He has sinned much by his defiance of all spiritual norms and played into the hands of the hostile forces, I feel." As someone who spent 18 years in the Islamic religion, I am really uncomfortable with the language of "sin" and "virtue". Every single one of us sinning in different parts of our being, day in and day out, by virtue of not being 100% purified and surrendered instruments. The difference between individuals is just one of degree. This sin and virtue stuff is so exceedingly relative that I simply don't bother with it anymore. Is the language of sin and virtue not what we are supposed to be liberating ourselves from? Is the Divine not beyond good and evil? Is the Supramental Conscious-Force not equal to good and evil? This statement strikes me as being so much closer to Christian and Islamic moralism than to the wideness and generosity of the Hindu spirit. Hinduism is probably the only religion whose scriptures have such a profound grasp of the limitations of morality. Also -- and maybe I am just exceedingly ignorant and stupid and childish for thinking this since I cannot claim to have any stable occult faculties myself -- but I have been surprised at how easily people have been accusing "the other" of being in the hands of the hostile forces. It just seems to me that one walks on thin ice when one makes such allegations. Unless one is integrally purified and surrendered, and has a lot of stability and equality, freedom from all moral prejudices, one's occult perceptions are highly prone to distortion. I have had some experiences in which I have been able to sense "vibrations", including "negative" or "asuric" vibrations from others. The problem is that I have never been able to separate these vibrations from my own subconscient projections, so I am always compelled to not take my inner perceptions so seriously until I have more stability, purity and equality. So unless people can claim to be integrally purified and have developed proper occult faculties, tested, stabilized, working at peak capacity day in and day out (which is precisely the example the Gurus have laid out for us!), I don't see how we can take these perceptions too seriously and be so convinced that our subconscient projections have nothing to do with them. Then again, maybe I am too inexperienced to understand these things. I welcome feedback and criticism on the above sentiments on occult perception. It's just that in my own experiences, I have seen how easily an inner vision comes, is degraded because of my impurities, and gets mixed and loses its original luminosity. This happens pretty much in a matter of seconds. So I am convinced that my perceptions are distorted and I will not take them seriously until I feel I am integrally purified. Otherwise there is the danger of infrarational mysticism and superstition, and that is something I want to avoid at all costs. "Perhaps he has “sinned,” as the religious-minded would say. At least he has apologized to those whom he has offended and offered to revise the passages they object to. Those who launched a campaign of character assassination against him – by circulating not only defamatory letters such as this one, but misleading extracts taken out of context from the book without the publisher’s permission, in violation of copyright laws – have never apologized or admitted their wrong-doing." Yes, regardless of Peter's "sins" in writing this biography -- and I am hardly suggested that it is above or beyond reproach, let alone being the final word on anything -- there have also been defamations of him and false allegations against him from the anti-Peter side. Some people have jumped to such ridiculous conclusions that one can only laugh -- one person online was accusing Peter of being an agent of the Vatican! Good God!! Others have accused him of having told a "lie" on every page of the biography -- an allegation this serious has to be backed up by actual facts. No doubt, the biography itself is a mixed affair but as far as I can tell, so is the reaction to it. "In short, one could put it like this: when one understands, one no longer judges and when one judges, it means that one doesn’t know." Yes, yes, yes! This sentiment of the Mother's has been a wake-up call for me on many an occasion when I have been making a fool of myself by judging someone else. I've concluded that Rule No. 1 of yoga is: be harsher on yourself than on anyone else. "Examine thyself without pity, then thou wilt be more charitable and pitiful to others." -- Sri Aurobindo Re: Re: A Cultural Misunderstanding
by
Debashish
on Tue 27 Jan 2009 10:15 AM PST | Profile | Permanent Link
Ned,
By and large, I enjoyed reading your response, though I cannot agree with you about the book being "mental, dry and analytical." I know of several people who can hardly be classed among the "highly esoteric academics interested in Sri Aurobindo" whio have read and enjoyed reading the book. But still, you may be right about politicians and government officers. However, when I read - In all fairness, perhaps the issue of Peter being an Ashramite is different from being a student at SACAR or the University of Tomorrow. It would be different if Mr. Reddy had objected to a student at SACAR / University of Tomorrow from writing this biography. I think Peter should have been more sensitive to the emotional boundaries of individuals in the institution of which he is a part. - I was hard put to understand what you meant. Because Peter is an ashramite, Ananda Reddy (who, by the way, is not an ashramite) develops the right to flout the principles of impartiality by which he runs his educational institution? Or hypocrisy is so much a part of academic institutions that the director of one should not be expected to be any different, particularly when it comes to the enjoyable spectacle of foreigner-bashing? And, when you write - Frankly, if I were him, I would have run the manuscript by others in the Ashram and gotten feedback/criticism before publishing it. It just seems to be a basic courtesy to respect colleagues in the institution of which you're a part. - what kind of institution did you have in mind, I wonder? Educational institutions, for example, do not consider it any basic courtesy for their scholars to run their manuscript by others in the institution. Much of the richness of a good academy comes from the radical differences of opinion which can be fielded impartially within it. Unless one is claiming supramental omniscience, human knowledge is all of the nature of interpretation and the expansion of such knowledge towards integrality can be much facilitated through confrontation with difference. What is required here is not so much sentiments such as "basic courtesy," but a culture of dispassionate consideration and mechanisms of dialog. Ananda Reddy's institution may, in fact, have served just such a role, were he not so eager to sit on the throne of judgement. On the other hand, if it is an ashram, not of the traditional kind, but of the kind founded by Sri Aurobindo and the Mother that you mean, when you are speaking of the prescription for the "basic courtesy" of running one's manuscripts by others, I am yet to come across such a requirement for the yogic life in the writings of the founders. Sri Aurobindo defended both Dilip Roy and Nolini Gupta for their perceived "rudeness" on several occasions, pointing out that to be affronted by such behaviors had no place in the ashram. It is a personal choice to run one's manuscript by someone else. There is no "basic courtesy" that can dictate whether one should have to do this, specially in an ashram where one owes one's inner allegiance to the gurus and to no one else. DB Re: Re: Re: A Cultural Misunderstanding
Dear Debashish,
Good points ... it is a really gray area to be honest, and I don't really know what the overall policy of the Ashram is. You've also previously pointed out that most people who have objected to this biography are actually not from the Ashram itself. I'm actually just trying to see if there are ways in which such a situation could have been avoided. What I gathered though was that there is perhaps an unstated position in the Ashram that sees Sri Aurobindo and the Mother in a particular light, and when someone from within the Ashram writes a publication that deviates from that position he / she will have to face the music to some extent. A corresponding example I can think of is if you are working in a regular biology department which upholds the Darwinian paradigm of evolution, and you suddenly write a book advocating Intelligent Design, which is anathema to the rest of your department and which your university institution sees as an embarrassment, it's fully expected that people will jump down your throat. The person who is setting out to do this should know that they will be violating boundaries and should know full well what they are getting into. I'm neither saying the behavior of the biology department in the example, nor that of the Heehs detractors is commendable, just that this is how human beings and human institutions often behave. Re: Re: Re: Re: A Cultural Misunderstanding
by
Debashish
on Thu 29 Jan 2009 11:29 AM PST | Profile | Permanent Link
Ned: What I gathered though was that there is perhaps an unstated position in the Ashram that sees Sri Aurobindo and the Mother in a particular light, and when someone from within the Ashram writes a publication that deviates from that position he / she will have to face the music to some extent.
DB: Though there is no "overall policy" of the ashram about this kind of thing (there is an official policy, btw, on how to resolve differences, and this was completely flouted by the anti-Heehs bunch), I agree with you that among a large number there is an "unstated position." This in fact, has gradually developed after the passing of the gurus and can be attributed to what you have elsewhere astutely identified as "the curse of the next generation" - ie. the hardening of a memorial conservatism in lieu of a culture of progress. What has complicated matters and brought them to a head in this case is the exploitation of this situation by a few who have set themselves up as pseudo-authorities in the absence of better judgement within the community. As I have tried to bring it out, this act of arson cannot be entirely reduced to ignorant outrage as with the rest of the conservatives. Ambition is always on the lookout for a good opportunity. Now, on the issue of the Darwinian biology department, this is exactly the example of poor academic culture. I know it happens, but it is not the only way things could happen, nor is the western academy marked by this kind of unconscious congealment of affinities. I can provide the counter example of the art history department at UCLA where two world authorities on Modern Art had neighboring offices, seldom saw eye to eye, had each their own admirers and haters within the department, and would never think of running their papers by each other, yet enriched the understanding of many due to their differences. A progressive institution creates social mechanisms whereby differences can be absorbed and made to enrich a community. This is, in fact, what the Managing Trustee of the ashram is trying to do and would have eminently succeeded in doing with some help from "intellectuals" rather than this kind of regressive and irresponsible behavior. Re: Re: Re: A Cultural Misunderstanding
To elaborate, I used the word "courtesy" in a particular context, i.e. when someone is about to write something that is going to deviate from the majority opinion in the department / institution of which one is a part. It would probably not be a bad idea to give others a "heads-up" so that they aren't emotionally knocked off-guard, I guess.
This said, I admit it's a pretty gray area. Re: Re: A Cultural Misunderstanding
by
Kepler
on Wed 28 Jan 2009 08:54 AM PST | Profile | Permanent Link
Personally, I appreciated Ned's (and at one point Angira's) comments noting some quanta of insensitivity on Peter's part re his latest book. Clearly the offense taken by many ashramites and devotees to some of the tone in Peter's book was not surprising, and he bears some responsibility for apparently considering that offense unimportant relative to the transcendent goal of attracting academics to the subject of Sri Aurobindo as a philosopher/mystic of interest.
To me a balanced reaction to the controversy finds some amount of excess and over-reaction on both sides (not necessarily an even amount, but at least some amount). On this particular blog one senses at times an almost "hagiographic" attitude toward Mr. Heehs himself. In the end perhaps some good will emerge. The instinctive splitting of many into two camps viewing each other as either Indian/religious/fundamentalist or Westerner/skeptic/materialist, was clearly latent beneath the surface and is a phenomenon one can imagine Sri Aurobindo smiling at. Re: Re: Re: A Cultural Misunderstanding
by
Tony Clifton
on Wed 28 Jan 2009 04:21 PM PST | Profile | Permanent Link
Kepler,
What you see on this blog rather than being a "haigiographic attitude toward Mr Heehs" is rather an instance of a necessary defense of the authors position visa vie the reactionary stance and the aggressive actions taken against him by people who pass themselves off as spokespeople for IY. Besides inciting a witch hunt against him they have charged him criminally for simply writing this biography. They have written petitions, expounded their dissatisfaction on the internet, (even on this site) and had him thrown out of his job. As a reaction to this rabid intolerance an aggressive defense and counterargument has been put up here. So do not confuse a vigorous defense with fawning devotion! You write: Clearly the offense taken by many ashramites and devotees to some of the tone in Peter's book was not surprising, and he bears some responsibility Yes some Ashramites and devotees have taken offense at this book, however there are many other Ashramites and Devotees who do not take offense at the book and actually praise it. So there are differences in perspectives even among devotees. So what you have here is simply a difference of opinion and if you and Ned happen to come down on one side of that opinion so be it, but that does not universalize such opinions. Moreover, to hold PH to some standard that includes being judged by Ashramites and Devotees and suggest that he should have first gotten their permission to publish it, is not only a slight to free speech and a minimum standard of academic freedom but is to grant censorship rights to a class of people who are biased toward a certain devotional perspective that at its most extreme can be called fundamentalist. To grant fundamentalist veto power over a work that aims at historic scholarship is hardly consistent with the path of Integral Yoga. (at least the one I know of) or common sense for that matter. Indeed perhaps PH should have known that some of those around him in the Ashram would "flip out" when they encountered the book and he most certainly has the freedom to choose if he he still wants to resides in that Ashram or depart. But, that point nonwithstanding it still does not grant those detractors the right to incite violence and criminal cases because they dont agree. Moreover, as has been demonstrated here not many of the detractors have even read this book. Regards your final point" The instinctive splitting of many into two camps viewing each other as either Indian/religious/fundamentalist or Westerner/skeptic/materialist, was clearly latent beneath the surface and is a phenomenon one can imagine Sri Aurobindo smiling at. " This is something that I wholeheartedly agree with, and perhaps we are even better off with those two camps coming out of the closet now to make explicit these difference even though as imagined Sri Aurobindo may certainly be chuckling. TC Your last point is well taken Re: Re: Re: Re: A Cultural Misunderstanding
TC and Kepler: thanks for your remarks.
I find myself agreeing with TC here: 'What you see on this blog rather than being a "hagiographic attitude toward Mr Heehs" is rather an instance of a necessary defense of the authors position visa vie the reactionary stance and the aggressive actions taken against him by people who pass themselves off as spokespeople for IY. Besides inciting a witch hunt against him they have charged him criminally for simply writing this biography. They have written petitions, expounded their dissatisfaction on the internet, (even on this site) and had him thrown out of his job. As a reaction to this rabid intolerance an aggressive defense and counterargument has been put up here. So do not confuse a vigorous defense with fawning devotion!' The best thing would have been for the people who are against this biography to have a face-to-face dialogue (or even debate) with Peter Heehs on a proper, moderated forum, without personal attacks and demonizations, just critiquing the book itself on its merits and demerits. Expose all the flaws/lies in the book if you see them there, and do so on a public (even Internet) forum so that there is transparency and so that everyone who had read the book can have their misconceptions corrected. That seems to me to have been the sanest way to deal with the situation. One thing I can say as a South Asian myself is that the kind of rigorous, scrupulous intellectual/mental culture that exists in the West simply does not (by and large) exist in South Asia at this point. I feel this is why people resort to silly things like violence and book-banning when they see things that they don't like. If a mental culture were to develop in South Asia, there would be better outlets available for people's frustrations. An additional point: as Debashish points out there were many cases of Sri Aurobindo and the Mother defending supposedly "rude" behaviors on the part of certain devotees. How often did Sri Aurobindo and the Mother ask people to leave the Ashram for misbehavior? What, generally, were the violations that led them to that point? I don't know myself, but am putting the questions out there for someone else who is more knowledgeable to consider. I will have to dig out references, but I seem to recall that there were several cases of devotees misbehaving, and even at some points literally becoming channels for some pretty terrible forces, and yet they were not asked to leave the Ashram. The following incident was posted by someone on one of the mailing lists to which I'm subscribed and if accurately reported, it seems pertinent here. I don't know the reference myself, and I've mailed the poster to ask for it (so I apologize if this is a misquotation of some sort -- please do correct it if it is and/or provide the reference if you know it): ------ THE ADVERSARY A disciple physically close to Mother, had become difficult. Mother was patient, putting up with her. But another disciple could not bear to see the harassment to which Mother was subjected and wanted to remove her physically from there. When he told Mother of his intention, she asked him why. Disciple: Because she is a constant source of trial to you and we cannot bear it any longer. Mother: But that is useless. You may remove her, but the force that harasses will take possession of someone else around. I have to change and convert that force. People are only unconscious instruments. ------ (True or not, in any event it appeals to my common sense.) Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: A Cultural Misunderstanding
by
koantum
on Thu 29 Jan 2009 05:51 PM PST | Profile | Permanent Link
How often did Sri Aurobindo and the Mother ask people to leave the Ashram for misbehavior?... I seem to recall that there were several cases of devotees misbehaving, and even at some points literally becoming channels for some pretty terrible forces, and yet they were not asked to leave the Ashram.I don't have the "Adversary" quote at hand, but it illustrates Sri Aurobindo's and the Mother's attitude perfectly. The rotten apples are here for a purpose, and sending them away serves none. (By which I'm not saying that Peter is one, at least not on account of his book, and probably not more than I myself am.) Besides, the rotten apples are rotten only to our limited consciousness. To a higher consciousness they are opportunities and necessary parts of this particular cosmic Lila. And again, even in the worst there is a psychic being that is loved by the Divine and longs to be freed. The Mother once said something to the effect that if the Divine were to judge people by human standards, there would be no people left on earth. Rudolf Steiner, whom the Mother described as "completely asuric," demonstrated the contrary attitude. When a teacher of his school reported sick but attended a lecture by Steiner the same evening, he just sacked her for indiscipline. Even before I read Mother's remark, I was totally repelled by this instance of unforgiving harshness. Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: A Cultural Misunderstanding
by
Rich
on Thu 29 Jan 2009 07:25 PM PST | Profile | Permanent Link
Rudolf Steiner, whom the Mother described as "completely asuric," demonstrated the contrary attitude. When a teacher of his school reported sick but attended a lecture by Steiner the same evening, he just sacked her for indiscipline. Even before I read Mother's remark, I was totally repelled by this instance of unforgiving harshness. ...
Ulrich This is an anecdotal story about Steiner that may or may not have actual substance but moreover if this is the quote I remember it is dubious and comes from the Agenda which are filled with such dubious quotes. (and one reason I am hard pressed to quote from the Agenda) If its the quote I am thinking of it has no context, a question is asked about Steiner and Mother says something like "oh that asura", one does not even know the context in how she understood the question. Although I am not a follower of Steiner I have read him not really encountered anything asuric in him or his writings. Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: A Cultural Misunderstanding
by
koantum
on Thu 29 Jan 2009 07:52 PM PST | Profile | Permanent Link
Mother's Agenda: February 14, 1968
Yesterday I was shown the photo of a man who is the guru of many people [Mahesh Yogi]. [...] So long as it’s not exclusive, that is, so long as the man or woman (whoever they are), the guru, doesn’t come and say, "I alone am the Truth" (meaning the others don’t know, I alone know), so long as they’re not like that, it’s quite all right. And when they’re enlightened enough to tell you, "Yes, I’ve caught hold of one little bit, I am giving it to you, but all other little bits are good" ... But even if you put all the bits together, you are still far from THE Truth. [...] Though there was Steiner who had much power over his disciples, but in his case, it was without doubt an adverse force with all the power of the Asuras.I suppose there is a recording of this. In my previous comment I translated from my memory of the French original, which may not have been quite correct. The anecdote was related to me by two highly educated (that is, over-qualified) Waldorf teachers, who thought that this kind of behavior was perfectly OK. Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: A Cultural Misunderstanding
by
Rich
on Fri 30 Jan 2009 09:23 AM PST | Profile | Permanent Link
For me this gets at a wider issue, my own feelings are I am weary of the Agenda (esp its editor) and all related conversational documents (even Evening talks which is taken from memory) as accurate sources for definitive statements of positions taken by SA/M. Although I realize in this instance a particular point was trying to be made, by in large I think the selective omissions and decontextualizations of their quotes is in fact part of the problem we are witnessing among the reactionary elements of the IY community.
This one quote in particular I find lacking credibility. Steiner is perhaps one of the major esoteric figures of the 20th century. It would have been one thing if the Mother had went into detail or made some substantial argument but to dismiss such a major figure with one sentence -that even seems to be clumsily inserted into this particular conversation- seems arbitrary in the extreme and much more likely a misconstruction of the Agenda editor. IMO to dismiss him out of hand with one sentence that dont even tell us if its "Rudolph" Steiner, "Charlie" Steiner, of some other Steiner dont square with reason. In fact, to the contrary I would argue that Steiner's education programs, organic farming and services for the handicapped are extremely benign, and practical. I challenge anyone to find any devious intention in them. Moreover, I am actually quite loath myself to use metaphysical terms to describe people such as avatars and asuras, devils or angels because in such language I find the seeds of metaphysical literalism that the stuff of fundamentalism is made of. In the specific case of the Agenda I find Lynda's outing of Satprems fundamentalism applicable. But even in adopting the language of the IY community I would call Hitler and Stalin asuras, the worst thing I find about Steiner and his legacy besides his obscure Rosicrucian concepts and dense almost unpenetratable prose is the humorlessness of many of his followers -although I dont find any particular malice in them- But if that is his main offense to have begun a fundamentalist Anthroposophical cult , I think as we have witnessed here in the Heehs affair, that no one in the IY community should throw any stones at that glass house. I also do not think we can take the instance of Steiner firing an employee as asuric or even wrongful. If firing an employee in itself were asuric, then every business owner would be sprouting horns. But in this instance as in any employment termination one would have to know the entire facts of the employer /employee relationship to make a proper judgement. At best the story may just tell us that it may have be preferable to work for the Mother. rich Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: A Cultural Misunderstanding
by
Rick
on Fri 30 Jan 2009 12:49 PM PST | Profile | Permanent Link
Rich and Ulrich,
I feel that one should not take too much stock in the seemingly out-of-context passage in the Agenda where Mother is quoted as saying something like Steiner's "hold over his disciples is completely asuric." I wouldn't go so far as Rich in some of his comments on the Agenda, but certainly in this passage or fragment one doesn't know what to make of it. Much of Rudolph Steiner's work seems solid, some brilliant and a significant contribution to education & organics; all of it seems to me sincere. Compared to Sri Aurobindo's I found some of Rudolf Steiner's writings (I read 15 of his books over a 6-month period in 1997 or 8) to be gobbledygook (somewhat indecipherable in places), though there seems to be much of very great value. And it certainly isn't responsible editing to throw that comment of Mother's on Steiner in without context as is done in the Agenda. The whole situation around his firing the employee also is all that clear. I think we're throwing around the word fundamentalist here without contexting it that well and in this way it tends to assume less and less meaning. There's way too much justice in this world. Rick Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: A Cultural Misunderstanding
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Rick
on Sat 31 Jan 2009 11:21 AM PST | Profile | Permanent Link
I question the meaning of the Heehs/The Lives of Sri Aurobindo controversy. I need to know what's struggling to happen and pushes to be born.
What's coming to me could, possibly, make some sense of two significant ruptures to the Integral Yoga community: that surrounding Satprem and publication of the Mother’s Agenda, the other around Heehs and recent publication of The Lives of Sri Aurobindo. There appear to be similarities. 1. Both ruptures concern publications that shed new light on the major figures of Integral Yoga, its founders. Mother’s Agenda is in the main though not entirely a series of taped conversations focusing on her developing process extending the transformation into the depths of the body. Satprem, the interviewer, took this material from South India to France feeling if he didn't it would be suppressed or bowdlerized and that it needed to reach the world at large. It has. Heehs wrote an academic biography (his second) professing to apply accepted critical standards, subjecting Sri Aurobindo to scrutiny similar to that of a non-Ashram biographer—dealing with more-external aspects of his life not previously addressed, in a manner not previously employed, also dealing with works that he has labored many years to understand. Heehs has been expelled from the Archives and Ashram and publication of the book legally challenged in India. It is already reaching a Western audience. 2. Both phenomena have divided the IY community into sometimes acrimonious factions...cultural misunderstandings... 3. But what really is at issue, in each case? What’s struggling to happen, wants or needs to emerge and descend? I feel that—in spite or even because of the significant flaws in Satprem and Peter Heehs—there’s a wider issue behind, uniting both these ruptures to the fabric (maybe even fiber) of our community. Mother and Sri Aurobindo belong not to us but to the wider world (yes, to the Wide World of the Vedas, if you like). Her transformation is for the body of the Earth; Sri Aurobindo’s action and message is even for those who don’t speak our jargon, practice our identity-politics; could be even for academics, students , those striving to apply “Critical Theory.” Mother is a much too-well-kept secret that Satprem (whatever you think of him and you have every right) was instrumental in telling to the world; Sri Aurobindo is our little secret, isn’t he, but one really too vast to be contained in any box. He can well stand up to the scrutiny of the philosopher, the sociologist, the postmodern explorer, his most-recent biographer, or the scientist chafing at the bit of a restrictive reductionism, and any number of them. He is for anyone even in sympathy with any phase of his vast work. Aspiration wears many disguises, even that of the mental being. Neither Sri Aurobindo nor the Mother ever demanded to be approached in any one way or by any monolithic cultural understanding. We have it in us to be respectful of different approaches. We are all difficulties and impossibilities that an impossibly multifaceted force is working by means of whatever difficulties to bring together for harmony and for real. A culture of difference could lead us to a stronger and broader unity, as "finite fronts" of something infinite in that fiery process it still seems to take to be born. Rick Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: A Cultural Misunderstanding
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Kepler
on Sat 31 Jan 2009 03:03 PM PST | Profile | Permanent Link
Rick,
I appreciated your thoughtful comment. I'm not sure it's possible to state intellectually “what's struggling to happen and pushes to be born”, but there might be some flashes and hints here and there. Clearly there are some similarities between the current Heehs/Lives and the earlier Satprem/Agenda controversies. I don't personally find the import of the content of Mother's Agenda can be directly compared to that of Peter's biography (i.e. ocean compared to stream). And the intensity of the current conflict also seems to me relatively mild compared to the height of the Ashram vs. Satprem/Auroville upheaval. But the partition into Indian/religious vs. Western/liberal stereotypes certainly has a common feel. Your comment 3) was quite good. What is it that's trying to emerge and work through these sometimes jarring events, or at least ultimately take advantage of them for a wider purpose? Ultimately perhaps the same thing that takes delight in hiding oneness in multiplicity and gradually recovering it there as a multiple-oneness. It's why nature evolves so many species and varieties of form and function, and why humans are spread across this globe with so many local languages, cultures, and shades of world-view. Those with an opening of whatever type to a higher consciousness pressing to manifest, bring their particular human culture with them, and that culture lurks as a psychological infrastructure which can assert itself with a jolt when pressure is applied. The ultimate reason for the pressure and the jolt may be to expose and overcome any such infrastructure that is constraining the oneness seeking to manifest. The jolts may be self-inflicted, but in the end the deeper purpose gets served, whether by jolts or (hopefully) a progressively more harmonious growth. Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: A Cultural Misunderstanding
Rick,
Thanks for the well-expressed insight. I quite agree with you. Just for the record, one clarification, though. You write: Heehs has been expelled from the Archives and Ashram... Heehs has not been expelled from the ashram. He is still very much an ashramite due to the courageous stand taken by the Managing Trustee, Manoj Dasgupta. Nor was he expelled from the archives. He stepped down voluntrarily to take the pressure off the Managing Trustee at a time when all manner of coercive means were being used by our "friendly intellectuals" to twist the arm of the ashram Trust. Your part about the lawsuit is quite correct. There are two lawsuits: one, a writ petition staying the Indian publication of the book (indefinitely) and the other, a scurrilous criminal case against Heehs. One of our well known "intellectuals," the "educator and scientist" (who, in fact, has recently been expelled from the archives) is behind both these cases. Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: A Cultural Misunderstanding
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koantum
on Sat 31 Jan 2009 05:25 PM PST | Profile | Permanent Link
Rich,
I am actually quite loath myself to use metaphysical terms to describe people such as avatars and asuras, devils or angels because in such language I find the seeds of metaphysical literalism that the stuff of fundamentalism is made of.I fully agree. Epistemologically I consider myself a radical constructivist of the von-Glasersfeld-school, so for me not only "avatar" and "asura" but every abstract term or metaphor means different things to different people, and there is no such thing as an "objective," universally acceptable sense. As von Glasersfeld himself pointed out, if there is anyone who has direct access to an objective reality it is the mystic, and the mystics tend to tell us that direct access to truth reveals something that is not mentally, let alone rationally or intellectually, communicable. So I take the metaphors of someone like the Mother more seriously than those, say, of Woody Allen, and if I feel I disagree, I take a good look at myself and try to find the reason of my disagreement. As for Satprem and others such as Pranab, who played a huge role in the Mother's life, they are simply too vastly entangled with the Divine Work and the fate of the world for us to meaningfully assess them. The two Waldorf teachers I mentioned are my cousin and her husband, for both of whom I have a great deal of respect. My mother spent the last years of her life in a beautiful anthroposophic home attached to their school, with absolutely wonderful people caring for her. Their four daughters went through Waldorf education, and some are now themselves Waldorf teachers, some are in Steiner-type farming. They all turned out great. These school are vastly superior to public schools, even in Germany. It was therefore an interesting synchronicity in my life that just at the moment when I was wondering what Sri Aurobindo or the Mother would have to say about Steiner — you don't have to mention the first name, everybody knows who is meant — I stumbled upon this passage I quoted from the Agenda. Sure, it comes as an afterthought, but what's wrong with afterthoughts? Also by its omissions my quote makes it more disconnected than it is. Regarding Mahesh Yogi, she was reflecting "c'est curieux, les gents qui ont du succès comme cela, ce sont toujours des Indiens." But then she concedes: "Oui, il y a eu Steiner qui avait beaucoup de pouvoir sur ses disciples, mais ça c'était carrément une force adverse avec toute la puissance des asouras." From all I knew about Steiner before then, I would not have thought of him as asuric. But reading this passage made some of my earlier impressions snap into place. For one thing, I always felt a negative visceral reaction to photos of Steiner, and I was repelled by certain episodes such as the one I recounted. Add to this his failure to make a clear distinction between mind and supermind (although this is rather a general problem with the German language). Returning to the concept of "asura" (which, as Sri Aurobindo once jokingly remarked, is here in the ashram applied to anyone with whom one has a disagreement), according to the Mother (as I understand her metaphor, needless to say) the original ones were four divine personalities, with all the powers of the Divine, who just happened to think of themselves as independent of each other and of their common origin. Some of the people whom the Mother has identified as asuras (including, for instance, the Mother's teacher in occultism, Theon) certainly don't match our childish concept of the devil, nor was this the Mother's meaning, so don't look for sprouting horns. You seem to make the same mistake as Ned, who keeps confusing the socially and morally acceptable with the divine and (per implication) the socially and morally unacceptable with the asuric. (Her protestations are based on too narrow a conception of the nature of social and moral judgments.) You can be one of the major esoteric figures of the 20th century and still be an asura in the Mother's sense. You can be a Hitler and not be an asura. In fact, he had a very mediocre personality — Sri Aurobindo equated his psychic being to that of a London cab driver — but he was open to asuric influences. This is what made it possible for the Mother to appear to him in the guise of the real McCoy and ask him to attack Russia, which was his undoing. Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: A Cultural Misunderstanding
"You seem to make the same mistake as Ned, who keeps confusing the socially and morally acceptable with the divine and (per implication) the socially and morally unacceptable with the asuric."
Eep -- okay, I don't recall doing this (at least not intentionally). ;-) By the way I agree very much with this point: "You can be one of the major esoteric figures of the 20th century and still be an asura in the Mother's sense." If I'm not wrong, the Indian tradition also posits such a thing as a hierarchy of asuras, so that the higher asuras are actually quite beautiful and therefore very deceptive. The psychic being seems to be the main source of protection for us in these realms which is why Sri Aurobindo emphasizes psychicisation as much as he does. Otherwise it is probably really easy to start deriving powers from asuric forces (I assume this is what was the case with Theon, etc.). Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: A Cultural Misunderstanding
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koantum
on Sat 31 Jan 2009 06:14 PM PST | Profile | Permanent Link
I assume this is what was the case with Theon, etc.Ned, somewhere the Mother said that all the four "big" asuras were fully incarnate during her life and she had dealings with all of them. If I remember correctly, one was dissolved (absorbed into its origin), one was converted, and one decided to fight to his bitter end. I don't remember about the fourth, and I don't remember which was Theon. Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: A Cultural Misunderstanding
The fourth, according to the Mother, was The Lord of Death, and that is the one she identified behind Theon.
I recollect reading Sri Aurobindo saying somewhere (if someone could locate the reference it would be nice) that some of the greatest asuras were his disciples. And I don't think he was saying it in a tongue-in-cheek way. The ocnversion of the asuras is a major apsect of the world transformation. As you have pointed out above, asuras can be converted or transformed, can dissolve into their origin or may need to be defeated. Asuras control a lot of power and can influence many people but that does not mean that they necessarily manifest evil in a life. If they have aligned themselves with some divine purpose they may offer themselves for conversion. This may involve struggles in an occult sense and it may be that there is an invisible action of drawing people to themselves and stading in front of the truth as its soruce, a partial light posing to be the whole. But unless we have the inner knowledge, we have no way of knowing what the truth of the matter is and in controversial matters such as this, it is best to maintain a distance unless sure. The same problem of taking the Mother's word for someone being an avatar applies here. One may hold it in faith personally but it is better not to wave a flag unless one "knows." Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: A Cultural Misunderstanding
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Rick
on Sun 01 Feb 2009 10:43 AM PST | Profile | Permanent Link
Debashish writes: "I recollect reading Sri Aurobindo saying somewhere (if someone could locate the reference it would be nice) that some of the greatest asuras were his disciples."
From Nolini Kanta Gupta, Collected Works, vol. 6, p. 21 in "On the Brink" -- see whole 5-page essay (which I actually located on p. 259 of Shyam Kumari's "Lights from NKG"): ...."For man as he is now is so far removed from godliness and so close to Asuras that the battle upon earth between Gods and Asuras seems to be an unequal game. Man by actual nature is asuric: it is through aspiration that he is trying to be godly but it seems he is now out of breath with his aspiration and has fallen back on his normal nature of the Asura."1 (footnote) 1. footnote (must be by NKG himself; note he does not quote but rather paraphrases--also note that he had access to Sri Aurobindo and to material that others did not have access to) bottom of p. 21: "Sri Aurobindo in one of his private notes discloses that most of his disciples were Asuras, the bigger the disciple the greater the Asura. Perhaps they, impelled by a higher Call, came of themselves in order to surrender and be converted to the new life. It may be that this urge wore off in the end and had to be postponed for its fulfilment. It is significant what Sri Aurobindo says in his Hymn to Durga: "'O Mother, give to our life and mind the Asura's strength, the Asura's energy and to our heart and intelligence a God's character and a God's knowledge.'" Anyone can read the entire 5-page essay for themselves on http://sriaurobindoashram.info/ and look for essays of disciples, vol. 6, "On the Brink" by Nolini Kanta Gupta. The entire essay must be read to get the proper context. Debashish, if you would comment on this, or anyone will, I would appreciate it. Not easy to know how to interpret but one feels strongly Sri Aurobindo was not joking! But one does not know. So what did he mean? Also, I did notice in the fine and commendable labor "A Cultural Misunderstanding" by Angiras a comment of Ananda Reddy to the effect that Nolini had personally told him (Ananda) that Satprem was affiliated with the Lord of the Nations. If NKG really said this, and depending on how he meant it to apply, or when, in human time, it took effect -- it is serious. NKG when he pronounces cannot be profitably ignored; he displays a very, very high level of authenticity. NKG was not hypnotized by any identity-politics of the Ashram or by anything else for that matter. So, is anyone able to comment on this claim? Rick Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: A Cultural Misunderstanding
I recollect reading it written by Sri Aurobindo himself but don't remember where or when now. But Nolini's footnote does refer to this. Regarding commenting on it, he does so himself and my comment earlier is in line with his - some of the asuras see transformation as an opportunity and come to Sri Aurobindo as disciples. The point I was making from this is that the use of the term "asura," is better left without moral judgment, unless one knows by experience what one is talking about. (The same goes about all the other specialized vocabulary of Sri Aurobindo and the Mother - eg. "avatar," "vibhuti" etc.)
The same in slightly different garb can be said about the issue of NKG, AR, Satprem and the Lord of the Nations. Hearsay is best ignored, however unprofitable it may be to ignore a secondary link in the chain. AR has not proved credible enough to lend a serious ear to his authoritative confidences. Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: A Cultural Misunderstanding
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Rich
on Sat 31 Jan 2009 11:09 PM PST | Profile | Permanent Link
Koantum:
I fully agree. Epistemologically I consider myself a radical constructivist of the von-Glasersfeld-school, so for me not only "avatar" and "asura" but every abstract term or metaphor means different things to different people, and there is no such thing as an "objective," universally acceptable sense. Rich: Ok so we agree that we are both constructing a meaning for asura and that this meaning can not be empirically demonstrated. Koantum: You can be one of the major esoteric figures of the 20th century and still be an asura in the Mother's sense. You can be a Hitler and not be an asura. Rich: Ok but, now you have defined your construction of Asura as identical to Mothers, so now at least I know how you are constructing your metaphors of Asura Koantum: You seem to make the same mistake as Ned, who keeps confusing the socially and morally acceptable with the divine and (per implication) the socially and morally unacceptable with the asuric. Rich: Well no, I am quite Nietzchean in all of this and am not applying a Judeo-Christian morality especially to the world of the becoming of the Superman (although Steiner would apply such a morality) what I am saying is something different, and involves the problems associated with occult signifiers whose meanings are always imprecise when shared collectively. For example, what does it mean when the Mother states (in the Agenda if I remember correctly) that the Chinese dont have psychic beings? Well, Maoist China certainly was a soulless state that threatened India but are all Chinese really descendant's of the Moon without evolutionary souls? Well, I dont think so.. but then one has to buy into the idea (metaphor) of a psychic being to agree or disagree here. And even though I resonate with the metaphoric quality of a psychic being, I disagree. ( I actually think she is speaking regards a very specific occult context of the Chinese nation that can not be done justice from a tape recording heard by a third party) But one could also disagree with Mother because they favors other metaphysical signifiers in constructing their spiritual topography . For example, a Buddhist like Dalai Lama -who the Chinese have brutalized - thinks that even Chinese people contain the seeds of a potential spiritual liberation although his perspective would not necessarily encompass the idea/metaphor of a psychic being. Koantum: So I take the metaphors of someone like the Mother more seriously than those, say, of Woody Allen, and if I feel I disagree, I take a good look at myself and try to find the reason of my disagreement. Rich Well I would probably defer to Woody on matters of comedy but I two reflect on my disagreements with SA/M and I find most disagreements resulting from decontextualized quotes and stuff they did not set out to write down in their own hand. But when I do disagree them and cant resolve it then I simply agree to disagree with them. The same thing with the Asura metaphor as you would seem to agree this is a matter of constructing meaning, and interpreting metaphysical or occult literalism such as Asuras reflects a highly personal degree of interpretation for example regards Steiner you write: Koantum: The two Waldorf teachers I mentioned are my cousin and her husband, for both of whom I have a great deal of respect. My mother spent the last years of her life in a beautiful anthroposophic home attached to their school, with absolutely wonderful people caring for her. Their four daughters went through Waldorf education, and some are now themselves Waldorf teachers, some are in Steiner-type farming. They all turned out great. Rich: And then you give your own impression: Koantum: From all I knew about Steiner before then, I would not have thought of him as asuric. But reading this passage made some of my earlier impressions snap into place. For one thing, I always felt a negative visceral reaction to photos of Steiner, and I was repelled by certain episodes such as the one I recounted. Add to this his failure to make a clear distinction between mind and supermind (although this is rather a general problem with the German language). Rich: What is apparent in this comparison between yourself, your cousin, her husband and your Mother is that you all construct very different meanings about Rudolph Steiner and so these things come down to matters of experience and personal interpretation. For myself, I first encountered RS hitch hiking through Switzerland -where I was playing jazz&blues on the street- and another musician picked me up who was also into jazz as were all the other cats living at his flat in Bern who had been life long Waldorf students and were youthfully resistant to the solemn world of their elders Anthroposophy. I wound up staying and playing music three days,. So my experience of Steiner was initially very cool additionally, I identify Steiner closely with my beloved Goethe who Sri Aurobindo respected as a vibhuti (yet another metaphysical metaphor) and Nietzsche as an example of ubermensch (another metaphysical metaphor) Is an asura an ubermensch? Are there angels or metaphors dancing on these pixels? So my point is not to make morality claims but rather to highlight the language problems we all encounter and are in fact trying to work out this very minute here on SCIY in the Heehs affair. I would argue that in addition to the cross-cultural misunderstandings there is a really serious language conundrum at play not only here but throughout the culture of Integral Yoga and that must first be resolved before this evolutionary knot can begin to untangled. and I suggest a start by noting what Norbert Wiener, the father of cybernetics, said: “The price of metaphor is eternal vigilance” rich Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: A Cultural Misunderstanding
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koantum
on Sun 01 Feb 2009 05:18 AM PST | Profile | Permanent Link
Rich, what do you mean in this context by "empirically demonstrated"?
now you have defined your construction of Asura as identical to Mothers, so now at least I know how you are constructing your metaphors of AsuraProvided you know how the Mother constructs it! Actually, unless you are a genuine mind reader, you can only know your own constructions (including your constructions of someone else's constructions.) I am ... not applying a Judeo-Christian morality...That's not what I mean by morality. Morality as I understand it consists of rules that are supposed to be binding on all member of a society. It is inherently false because the only true guidance comes from within, from the same source for all yet never the same for any two persons, any two times, or any two circumstances. (Perhaps this clears it up for Ned as well.) I actually think she [the Mother] is speaking regards a very specific occult context of the Chinese nation...Probably. a Buddhist like Dalai Lama -who the Chinese have brutalized - thinks that even Chinese people contain the seeds of a potential spiritual liberation....I seem to remember the Mother saying something to the effect that by their presence on earth they have acquired a psychic being. What is apparent in this comparison between yourself, your cousin, her husband and your Mother is that you all construct very different meanings about Rudolph Steiner and so these things come down to matters of experience and personal interpretation.Of course they do. my point is not to make morality claims but rather to highlight the language problems we all encounter and are in fact trying to work out this very minute here on SCIY in the Heehs affair. I would argue that in addition to the cross-cultural misunderstandings there is a really serious language conundrum at play not only here but throughout the culture of Integral Yoga and that must first be resolved before this evolutionary knot can begin to untangled.Do you really believe that language problems can be worked out with the help of language? Quoting A. Quale (from my paper "Radical constructivism — childhood’s end" in AntiMatters 2/1): What is the meaning of "shareable knowledge," if we cannot check whether it is really shared? The answer ... is that knowledge may be considered to be shared between two persons only insofar as they can agree that they share it. In other words: they share it until something happens that lets them discover that they do not! ... Loosely speaking, then, we share, to the extent that we think we do!I'd say, on the contrary, that the evolutionary knot has to be considerably untangled before this language conundrum at play (not only throughout the culture of Integral Yoga but throughout the world) can be resolved. Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: A Cultural Misunderstanding
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Rick
on Sun 01 Feb 2009 09:47 AM PST | Profile | Permanent Link
Thank you Kepler for your kind and sharp reply to my post. Let me add, I was not equating the two cultural misunderstandings (that have ensued around publication of Mother's Agenda and publication of The Lives of Sri Aurobindo) but merely state similarities. Because the current storm centers more around the mental, and the older storm was more vital, the present controversy is not so "intense" (though this is true only in a superficial sense). One of my main points is that both these situations concern Mother's and Sri Aurobindo's release into the world—that we do not own them, though we may jealously hold on to them. Their action is spreading out across the Earth and into it and the outer agitation is symptomatic. And yes, I feel one can ask questions ("what is trying to be born?") and get answers (though these evolve over time, through a developing process)—the expression is not so easy, of course. Otherwise, really, there is no connection between mind and Supermind (and no integral yoga) and let me follow an easier path than this, contact the Divine even from one limited point and go home and forget about it! And thank you Debashish for correcting me: I'm glad Peter Heehs is still part of the ashram though he's stepped down from the archives—and grateful to hear of the courageous stand and action of the Managing Trustee on these matters. This doesn't mean he agrees with the book and endorses every aspect of its approach. It means he agrees with the greater purpose of the Ashram. It means he is standing up for the Light, when and where it counts. It means he has the vision and courage to stand up when the wind blows.
Ulrich and Rich seem to be mostly talking among themselves ( yes, I know the difference between between and among). But permit me it if you only will to interrupt on Steiner and the asura connection, with a personal note. When I was finishing my six months of Steiner immersion in the 90s I came to an impasse. RS had said that in the 1930s a man would come along trying to bring the highest principle down connecting it with the lowest and that this (premature) effort would be under diabolical inspiration. I had read much of Sri Aurobindo before my sidetrack into Steiner and realized that this concept seemed to refer to Sri Aurobindo, who especially in the 1930s was bringing the highest supramentality into the physical. (Of course Steiner didn't know Sri Aurobindo; it was the "principle" of the thing.) Was Sri Aurobindo's effort premature, Ahrimanic, out of the proper evolutionary sequence? To me, a momentous question. Around Sri Aurobindo's birthday I got a powerful and clear inner answer that I could trust Mother and Sri Aurobindo and knew that I was meant to follow their path. I checked it and checked it and it stood. Then Van Vrekhem's bio of Sri Aurobindo confirmed it--- and I also became aware of that passage in the Agenda to which Ulrich refers. It certainly seemed like parts of that conversation were missing (that pesky editor again); but Mother may really have said this and meant it. I realized Sri Aurobindo's books and his communications were very clear, and to me anyway Steiner's though often brilliant and beautiful and full of fine feeling were not. So I realized I would follow this path and keep going forward. So this came at a crossroads. I took my guitar to Parkin, Arkansas, and the rest is history. As far as the exchanges between Rich and Ulrich: I strongly agree that the tangle is more an evolutionary knot than a linguistic one. Yes, Rich has a very deep understanding and real sense of the problems of languaging and expression. But again, as I said, there must a connection between mind and Supermind or let's pack our bags. We can look to the spiritual mind planes, the intuition to speak loosely, and learn to receive from it and even try to express it. This is going to take a lot of practice I'm afraid. (Ulrich, does or can aRadical Constructivist approach dovetail with Sri Aurobindo's in bringing the higher powers of consciousness into the human mind?—I really appreciate if you could clarify, and not only or as well point to journal articles to read.) We can gain greater understanding of each other also that is not merely our illusion. We can even begin—really speaking, let the Shakti begin and the psychic assist—to build more than bridges but really connect mind, intuition, planes higher or elsevier. We are not permanently stuck in the prison of our mind! Some of the postmodernists were looking for what Sri Aurobindo found; and yes though he came before them he incorporated the essence of postmodernism into his approach (read "Faith and the Shakti" in Synthesis). We can be naive, in reality, by not being smart enough to see through our own smartness; we do it all the time. We can ask questions, wait for the answer, and even try to talk about it to others, and not be under a complete illusion that we are actually relating and communicating or even communing. Or there is no yoga. It is more like Ulrich says an evolutionary tangle than a knot in our language. Spontaneity is never out of place; Saccidananda can happen here. To me anyway, though we must be austere in trying to understand in the full context what she meant, or he meant, I not only feel but I find the Mother and Sri Aurobindo --- when they really pronounce on something --- to be authentic. I don't feel so comfortable "agreeing to disagree" with them; they are helping me to rise in my level but I do not expect at all to ever be absolutely on their level! So I ask them for clarification & their answers are clear when I can receive. The fault lies not in those Stars but in my still-fragmented self. But I defend to the death your right to differ. Because though I hold to this, I hold, even more strongly: there are no dogmas and there no compulsion on anyone in this yoga. Rick Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: A Cultural Misunderstanding
by
Rich
on Sun 01 Feb 2009 11:17 AM PST | Profile | Permanent Link
Koantum:
what do you mean in this context by "empirically demonstrated"? Rich: well let me say what it is by saying what it is not and things that cannot be empirically demonstrated would be metaphysical signifiers/signifieds... Koantum: That's not what I mean by morality. Morality as I understand it consists of rules that are supposed to be binding on all member of a society. It is inherently false because the only true guidance comes from within, from the same source for all yet never the same for any two persons, any two times, or any two circumstances. (Perhaps this clears it up for Ned as well.) Rich: According to Nietzsche all conventional morality is a clever ruse by which the slave gains power. The ruler does what he/she wills without concern for moral consequences. I'd say that what you are proposing is consistent with Nietzsche's polemic in the genealogy of morals Koantum: Do you really believe that language problems can be worked out with the help of language? Quoting A. Quale Rich: No, what I am suggesting is that first one must become aware that there even is a language problem!!! Only then can one begin to navigate its snares and traps. IMO however, one of these language problems is literalizing metaphors of the occult or metaphysical on to real people or historic events. Koantum: I'd say, on the contrary, that the evolutionary knot has to be considerably untangled before this language conundrum at play (not only throughout the culture of Integral Yoga but throughout the world) can be resolved. Rich: Well this maybe a chicken an egg problem but IMO the linguistic turn in philosophy and the realizations of the limitations and constraints of language drawn by folks like Derrida was a huge evolutionary advance in making us self-aware of the language games we all play. In relationship to IY or spiritual traditions here is the problem as I see it using IY as an example and I will use your insight: Koantum: Actually, unless you are a genuine mind reader, you can only know your own constructions (including your constructions of someone else's constructions.) Rich: Well this is correct if we are dealing with non-empirical phenomena. Forgive my positivist turn here but unlike an avatar or asura, if I see an orange and you see an orange we can agree there is an orange there because we can perform some empirical test to get to the reality of it. So at least we can agree about the reality of the existence of the orange, there can at least be a collective representation we can agree on, although the associations the object evokes and the subsequent psychological reality it takes on for each party may be quite different. Now ee borrow words of SA/M that signify complex occult and spiritual realities that have meaning only when experienced, and go on to literalize them into a discourse that ignores the fact that not many of us even remotely have encountered them. Supermind, Psychic Being, Avatar, Asura are all signifiers that point to a metaphysical signified that we have no access to with the rational faculty that gives us language. We then interpret whatever occult experiences we may have or think we have by overlaying metaphorical categories on to what we perceive to be metaphysical realities. but as you say:"unless you are a genuine mind reader, you can only know your own constructions" So I will never know if your experience of the psychic being is the same as my experience of it. By in large then at some point these terms/metaphors simply become empty place holders for a belief system that is meaningless without experience of the reality it points to. And as you have written about the impossibility of sharing constructions, even if one experiences these realms one is not going to be able to ever know for certain if they are sharing the same experience of the metaphysical with another. Now belief systems are associated with hierarchical power structures and we invested in the priest or leadership the authority of interpretation. Most often then the priest will rely on their own constructions to interpret the experiences of the diversity of their followers, (We see this in the Heehs affair where the new gurus exclude critical intelligence from associations with spirituality, choosing to interpret anything other than haigiography as heresy.) What happens then is the literalizing of metaphors into dogma/doxa resulting in the collapse of a multi-dimensional metaphysical vision into a singular perspective that closes itself off from diverse readings and eschews individual revelation for the doctrine of the faithful. Since experience of the realities the place holder of language signifies is a matter of individual revelation it is all but impossible to participate in a shared collective living reality of them. This is just another reason why I believe that collective yoga is an oxymoron. So until the IY community deals with the very significant language barriers that constitute its culture I see no way out of its inevitable implosion into single literal minded ignorance. rich Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: A Cultural Misunderstanding
by
Rick
on Sun 01 Feb 2009 03:09 PM PST | Profile | Permanent Link
Rich,
This is an important point and I will try to make it evenly. When you say, as you do say, that when two people talk of the "psychic being" or "Supermind" it is impossible to know through their representations and mental constructions that they are even talking about the same thing, my experience is that this is not always so. I've had several conversations lately where I and different others did just that. It really is possible, Rich, to talk about these things with another person and know that you are talking about the same thing. Even bit as much or even more so than with an orange. It may be a very provisional, beginning experience of these --- granted, and there is a lot of evolution and effort needed to enact them in real time, but it can be done and it has been done and is being done, somewhere, right now. If we were all in such completely diffferent worlds with no bridges between, a collective yoga would not be possible. But it is. And not a dumbed-down kind, either. I don't think this forum is a proper place to talk about these things directly and won't. It can be a big mistake to conduct such conversations; but if there is mutual affinity, and respect, and sincerity, and the people have had certain experiences (which you do not have to be an avatar to have) it can be done. The hard part is not establishing that the psychic being and the Supermind are real and can be experienced differently by different individuals who still clearly see, perceive and understand they are talking about the same thing. No, the difficulty is opening up to them and being transformed—going through a convoluted, multifaceted process, in every part of you; so many parts of which don't immediately, or even long-term, want to change. The basic experiences we find out are just the beginning of the Mother knows how much, maybe lifetimes of work, but we have reason to hope they are a beginning. Because the psychic being and the Supermind exist, and we have pioneers and guides to help, and we can come in some kind of touch with them we really can communicate if we work at it and a collective yoga can be done and is somehow being done despite of and using all difficulties and impossibilities. We aren't stuck in our separative individualities. It was never the (deepest) intention of postmodernism to imprison us but to cut away all our chains away for good. But to communicate about these things at all, we have to have a lot of openness and mutual self-respect, and yes, you are quite right, we must be conscious in our languaging, and really work at that. I can't do much more here than just make these points, based not only on reading but in encounters, because I do feel these points need to be made, just like Sonny Rollins needs to be played. Not only that, Rich, but the psychic being and the Supermind are conspiring to change life at its roots, they are whispering to each other right now. This collective yoga, which you say is impossible, I say is inevitable. Rick Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: A Cultural Misunderstanding
by
Debashish
on Sun 01 Feb 2009 07:14 PM PST | Profile | Permanent Link
RC: By in large then at some point these terms/metaphors simply become empty place holders for a belief system that is meaningless without experience of the reality it points to. And as you have written about the impossibility of sharing constructions, even if one experiences these realms one is not going to be able to ever know for certain if they are sharing the same experience of the metaphysical with another.
Now belief systems are associated with hierarchical power structures and we invested in the priest or leadership the authority of interpretation. Most often then the priest will rely on their own constructions to interpret the experiences of the diversity of their followers, (We see this in the Heehs affair where the new gurus exclude critical intelligence from associations with spirituality, choosing to interpret anything other than haigiography as heresy.) DB: The insight into language and the realities it constructs that is being expressed here cannot be underestimated. It is the literalism of metaphysics and the willingness of a community to buy into such literalism, which is largely the cause of the present sorry condition of the "IY community." That said, I agree with you, Rick, that recognition of a common experience is possible through language for those who have had the experience. Though different aspects or qualities (prakriti) of the experience may be expressed by different experiencers, the ontological reality (purusha) of the entity experienced remains the same and is recognized behind the expression by those who have experienced it, however different the subjective properties of the expression. But this, of course, is not the danger Rich is referring to, since commonality of experience regarding the truths of "avatar," "vibhuti," "asura," "supermind" etc. is not so easy to run across in our present time and space. Thus when people use these terms, it is most likely that they have not experienced its truth and are using the reductionist mental shell (which boils down to "good" and "bad") for these terms. Of course, one may use these terms in philosophical constructions, but I am speaking of life-judgements here. Moreover, the users of these terms, in a culture which accepts the legitimacy of such literal reductions without experience, include among them those who see a great advantage in prertensions of inner or occult knowledge to control power and manipulate opinion. (This is most starkly manifest in the present PH affair, and yet few seem to recognize it). DB Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: A Cultural Misunderstanding
by
koantum
on Sun 01 Feb 2009 07:57 PM PST | Profile | Permanent Link
Rick: Ulrich and Rich seem to be mostly talking among themselves ( yes, I know the difference between between and among).Not being a native English speaker, I have to ask, what exactly is the difference? In brief. It certainly seemed like parts of that conversation were missingNot to me. I think She was simply qualifying here statement that "les gents qui ont du succès comme cela, ce sont toujours des Indiens" by saying that "Oui, il y a eu Steiner..." I realized Sri Aurobindo's books and his communications were very clear, and to me anyway Steiner's ... were not.In 1972, my first year in Pondicherry, the SABCL appeared volume by volume, and as I read them one after the other, it seemed to me that what Sri Aurobindo had written was already known to me – I just had more or less forgotten. There are also quite a few Aurobindonians that had previously been anthroposophists. For fairness sake, I should add that in Steiner publications Sri Aurobindo is generally being spoken of with great respect. Ulrich, does or can a Radical Constructivist approach dovetail with Sri Aurobindo's in bringing the higher powers of consciousness into the human mind?No, inasmuch as Radical Constructivism (RC) is purely an epistemology. But von Glasersfeld also wrote: anyone who claims to have knowledge that represents the world objectively, that is, as it might be prior to our experiencing it, can justify this claim only on the basis of mystical revelation.Which immediately brings to mind Tom Paine's counterpoint: No one will deny or dispute the power of the Almighty to [communicate a revelation] if he pleases. But admitting, for the sake of a case, that something has been revealed to a certain person. . . it is revelation to that person only. When he tells it to a second person, a second to a third, a third to a fourth, and so on, it ceases to be a revelation to all those persons. It is revelation to the first person only, and hearsay to every other.Some articles on RC: In AntiMatters Vol.2 No. 1: Radical constructivism — childhood’s end Realism: the bane of science education, and what can be done about it There’s no leaving the bubble of consciousness: Herbert Müller’s 0-D epistemology All written/compiled by me In AntiMatters Vol.2 No. 3: An introduction to radical constructivism Facts and the self from a constructivist point of view Learning as a constructive activity All by Ernst von Glasersfeld We can gain greater understanding of each other also that is not merely our illusion.If we qualify something as illusion, we assume that there is a way of knowing that is not illusory. There is indeed such a way of knowing, but as Sri Aurobindo and the Mother (and others before them) have stressed, it is not accessible to the mind, not even through the highest and most powerful intuition descending into the mind, but only by having one's cognitive center raised to a supramental level. What is known there is incommunicable to the lower levels. So in this sense, all our knowledge is illusory. But illusion is not an all-or-nothing affair. The Synthesis chapter you mention ("Faith and Shakti") is indeed most revelant in this context. We grow from illusion to illusion until finally our eyes are unsealed. Isn't this exactly the adventure of evolution seen from the inside (rather than in terms of fossils)? We can ask questions, wait for the answer, and even try to talk about it to others, and not be under a complete illusion that we are actually relating and communicating or even communing.Absolutely. What is widely ignored in epistemology is that even our most ordinary knowledge is supported by an intuition founded on the identity of the knower and the known: In the cognition of external things, our knowledge has an entirely separative basis.... The only seemingly direct contact with them or direct evidence we have of them is through the senses; sight, hearing, touch seem to initiate some kind of a direct intimacy with the object of knowledge: but this is not so really, not a real directness, a real intimacy, for what we get by our sense is not the inner or intimate touch of the thing itself, but an image of it or a vibration or nerve message in ourselves through which we have to learn to know it. These means are so ineffective, so exiguous in their poverty that, if that were the whole machinery, we could know little or nothing or only achieve a great blur of confusion. But there intervenes a sense-mind intuition which seizes the suggestion of the image or vibration and equates it with the object, a vital intuition which seizes the energy or figure of power of the object through another kind of vibration created by the sense contact, and an intuition of the perceptive mind which at once forms a right idea of the object from all this evidence. (The Life Divine, pp. 547–8)Evidently, knowledge by identity also evolves, but then again, however obvious it is to those who have it, they won't be able to communicate its essential revelations to those who lack the same or similar revelations. I not only feel but I find the Mother and Sri Aurobindo — when they really pronounce on something — to be authentic.What they mean is surely authentic, but this does not imply that the way we understand it is. This comes back to questioning ourselves rather then them. It is the point the fundamentaliteralists don't get: they take their own understanding, however limited, to be authentic. But I defend to the death your right to differ. Because though I hold to this, I hold, even more strongly: there are no dogmas and there no compulsion on anyone in this yoga.If only the fundamentaliteralists would get this. a comment of Ananda Reddy to the effect that Nolini had personally told him (Ananda) that Satprem was affiliated with the Lord of the Nations.... is anyone able to comment on this claim?If there is any truth in it, it's so simplified that it amounts to baby talk. Rich: well let me say what it is by saying what it is not and things that cannot be empirically demonstrated would be metaphysical signifiers/signifieds...Are there things that can be empirically demonstrated? I am serious, because I spent the better part of my life studying science (physics in particular) and come to the conclusion that even there, if you remove the metaphysics, very little remains, the orange notwithstanding. For even there, try to say anything about the orange that is (i) scientific, (ii) not trivial, and (iii) uncontroversial, and you won't find much! what I am suggesting is that first one must become aware that there even is a language problem!!! Only then can one begin to navigate its snares and traps. IMO however, one of these language problems is literalizing metaphors of the occult or metaphysical on to real people or historic events.... IMO the linguistic turn in philosophy and the realizations of the limitations and constraints of language drawn by folks like Derrida was a huge evolutionary advance in making us self-aware of the language games we all play.There I couldn't agree more with you. Now we borrow words of SA/M that signify complex occult and spiritual realities that have meaning only when experienced, and go on to literalize them into a discourse that ignores the fact that not many of us even remotely have encountered them.That's indeed the problem. I recall the Mother writing something to the effect that if you quote a true statement that does not correspond to anything in your experience, then you are actually telling a lie. Since experience of the realities the place holder of language signifies is a matter of individual revelation it is all but impossible to participate in a shared collective living reality of them.If you define the IY community in this way, it's members are few indeed, but I don't think it's an empty set. So until the IY community deals with the very significant language barriers that constitute its culture....As you said, becoming aware of them would be a great beginning. After that, it's Vivekananda's turn, who said that the unity of all religions will be fully manifest when everyone has (and is allowed to have!) his or her own religion. (We are not going to have a panel deciding which doctrines are true and which aren't!) Rick: We aren't stuck in our separative individualities.Indeed: Although his ego claims the world for its use,Yes, eventually. Because of our time difference, when you in the US write, I in India tend to sleep, and vice versa. This famous Savitri quote may therefore be an appropriate conclusion: God shall grow up while the wise men talk and sleep; Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: A Cultural Misunderstanding
by
rakesh
on Sun 01 Feb 2009 10:01 PM PST | Profile | Permanent Link
DB:Though different aspects or qualities (prakriti) of the experience may be expressed by different experiences, the ontological reality (purusha) of the entity experienced remains the same and is recognized behind the expression by those who have experienced it, however different the subjective properties of the expression.
I agree with you. We are not living in separate worlds as the earlier sankhya system proposed but united in purusha otherwise yoga(unite) does not make any sense. Hence salvation is not individual escaping out of the system but can bring enlightenment to others if properly communicated. I also agree with Rick and DB about the use of language to correlate experiences. Koantum, I feel, is right about the contrary opinion about breaking the evolutionary know first or a simultaneous breakthrough in language too. Change in consciousness also brings new powers of nature into manifestation that breaks the old rigidity in nature(language). We see some glimpses of it in Sanskrit. Rich has also made some important observations about the difficulties language poses to construe mystic experiences and also about the ineffectiveness of mass programs to convert huge populations into yoga. But a critical mass of the population has to follow the great path to leave traces or a at least a narrow path for the rest to follow in the future. How much is the critical mass. According to Mahesh yogi it is square root of the population. God knows!!! Probably quality and not as much quantity makes more sense in these matters. Re: A Cultural Misunderstanding
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Rick
on Sun 08 Feb 2009 10:17 AM PST | Profile | Permanent Link
Ulrich,
In brief -- I appreciate your replying to my non-brief post of last weekend directed to you and to Rich. Could not get back to the Web all week and things have really moved on. I am too pressed by personal tragedies and work life demands on time/energy and it seems I failed to communicate so that we were in effect only talking parallel. It does truly me sad to see myself once again wasting other's people's precious time. With limited time one must follow that stair into a new birth of the consciousness. But I would be remiss in not acknowledging sincere efforts and so thank you for taking the time to craft your well-considered post. Rick Lipschutz Re: Re: A Cultural Misunderstanding
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koantum
on Sun 08 Feb 2009 06:17 PM PST | Profile | Permanent Link
Dear Rick,
It is not my impression that we were talking in parallel. At best, I was supplementing what you wrote, at worst qualifying it. The basic tenor was agreement. Moreover, although I quoted you and Rich, the addressee of my epistle was the world at large (that is, readers of comments at SCIY). It is a universal failing of human nature to interpret statements as directed against oneself even if they are not, and to interpret them as criticism by default. We all do this, so here I am again talking to the world at large. All the same, I want to apologize for having given you an antagonistic impression at a time when you had more than enough trouble on hand. I wish you the strength to see your personal tragedies in the light that reveals the divine purpose in all that happens. AUM 2009 (and/or a tribute to the yoga of censorship)
by
Tony Clifton
on Sat 28 Feb 2009 07:24 PM PST | Profile | Permanent Link
Regards recent comments on the intellectual/moral bankruptcy of IY Institutions this years 2009 AUM conference features its main speakers as Alok Panday and Sraddhalu Rande http://www.aum2009.com/speakers.html
What their glowing bios in the above link fail to tell is that these are two of the main ringleaders of the ex-communication movement against the author of The Lives of Sri Aurobindo, and certainly were as responsible as anyone for the escalation of the unfortunate events that followed on their inappropriate actions. I would hope those thinking to attend this conference, who are at all sympathetic to the plight of the author of The Lives of Sri Aurobindo would do their due diligence before reserving a slot at this event. Re: Re: Re: A Cultural Misunderstanding
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Rick
on Sun 01 Mar 2009 09:33 AM PST | Profile | Permanent Link
Dear Ulrich,
I just this moment saw this post of February 8th where you responded so kindly to my comments. Thank you for writing it. I do see strongly that I was manifesting this universal human failing to take things personally and as criticism when they truly are not. In any case one can find areas of fruitful communication and continue. My new resolve is to try to go in the spirit of contribution, more catalytically and with less sidetrack. Too late now to pick up that thread but time to go on with this resolve -- progressive collaborative dialog. Rick |
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